Louis CK and Steve Marmel
“Speaking Freely” show recorded Feb. 28, 2002, in Aspen, Colo.
Ken Paulson: This is a special edition of “Speaking Freely” taped at the US Comedy Arts Festival, and today, we feature the work of two of the next wave of comics in America: Louis CK and Steve Marmel. Welcome.
Steve Marmel: Thanks for having us.
Louis CK: Thank you.
Paulson: We actually negotiated that “next wave” thing. I came out in the hallway, and I said, “So, what do I call you guys — rising stars?”
Marmel: Well, in retrospect, the idea of being a next wave after doing this for 20 years is a little creepy and disheartening.
CK: It’s nice, though. It’s like being carded when you buy liquor.
Paulson: But, that’s sort of the reality. You do have to, like, have 20 years of dues before you kind of emerge. And why is that?
CK: Before you become a new young comic, you have to do it for, like, 20 years.
Paulson: That’s right. And how old were you when you began?
CK: I was 18 when I started. I was in high school.
Paulson: And what did they call — I mean, what’s the embryonic description of — you weren’t the rising young star then.
CK: I was just a nuisance. A guy talking in front of an audience. I think it starts with that.
Paulson: And, Steve, you actually began with a career in journalism in mind?
Marmel: Well, USA Today. Yeah, I was a freelance columnist for USA Today for a few years. The — you know, in the editorial page, they’d have those mandatory left and right opinions, and then the one thing that showed up under the cartoon — that’d be me.
Paulson: Oh, great. And that probably paid as well as most of your dates.
Marmel: Yeah, so, I kind of stayed in college and kept getting my grants while I was doing it just so that I could, you know, stay in college.
Paulson: Like a lot of other people who are stand-ups today, you do a lot of other work. And in your case, Louis, you’ve won an Emmy for your work as a, as a writer.
Paulson: Do you approach that differently, you know, when you write for other people?
CK: Than stand-up?
Paulson: Yeah, for example, when you wrote for “Conan,” is that a different kind of voice you write than the one when you get up yourself?
CK: Well, it’s just — I think it’s the same comic voice or comedic point of view, really, but I just have more, more talking heads to play with and stuff. When you write sketches, you just get to split yourself into different people and have props on the set and use editing and stuff. But it’s, to me, it’s still the same sort of objective. But there’s also a lot of freedom in just being onstage and being able to just yack out whatever you want.
Paulson: I have to ask — you know, comedy’s always been sort of pushing the envelope in terms of free expression, and yet, today, we live with the war on terrorism, and it’s a period when — in which — well, we’ve had at least one press secretary warn us that we should watch what we say and what we should joke about.
Paulson: Has that had any effect on the work the two of you do?
Marmel: If anything, it’s made me kind of more aggravated and more focused on talking about that stuff, ’cause it’s that whole “You can’t tell me what to do” reflex. I mean, the minute that happened, you wanted to start writing jokes specifically on it — especially if that’s what your passion’s for.
CK: Yeah, for me, I don’t do a lot of stuff that’s topical. Like, what I do is a lot sillier than that. So, I mean, a lot of times, I offend people, but it’s kind of inadvertent. It’s not because I’m kind of going after the jugular and I hit a chord. It’s just that I do something silly that somebody finds really obnoxious.
Marmel: Last night, you had some woman, like, just going, “You can’t say that.”
CK: Yeah, screaming at me.
Marmel: Somebody’s second wife in Aspen was just going, “You can’t talk like that. You’re not like — you’re not right.”
CK: But I wasn’t saying anything provocative. I was just being a jerk. So, for me, it didn’t really make — I mean, I did the “Conan” show, I guess, in November after Sept. 11, and I had one joke I wanted to do about it that was rather — you know? And they tried to help me — they, they try to help you get whatever you want on the air. But the standards people just didn’t want it on. And it was really more about that they knew if I said that on the air, that it would upset millions of people that would then write them and call and stuff like that.
Paulson: We want to come back and talk about standards and practices —
Paulson: — and writing for network and others. But you pointed out that you’re not terribly topical in your work. On the other hand, you do —
Paulson: — a lot of topical material. Why does that hold some appeal for you?
Marmel: Well, first of all, I think it’s the journalism background, and it’s just kind of being into the news and always being into the news, and that’s where my mind always is, and just kind of, like, not liking the fact that — excuse me [Clears throat]. The information I get, it doesn’t feel like the right information, so, I’m always kind of reacting to it like that. Comedy just allows you to kind of scream back at the TV with an audience and yell at the newspaper with an audience, and you get that instant reaction. But it’s, it’s just — these are the things that affect everybody, and these are the things that you really want to talk about because you’ve got 45 minutes onstage to talk about whatever you want to talk about. I just like talking about stuff that really kind of affects everybody on a day-to-day life. I might not have their opinion on it, and I might annoy them, and it might really tick ‘em off, but it’s that same common mind-set that I get to kind of go into.
Paulson: Doesn’t that really reduce the shelf life of your joke?
Marmel: Oh, yeah, yeah.
CK: You got to keep up with the — yeah. But I’ve found both things to work for people. Like, I live in New York and work the clubs there, so, I mean, pretty much right away after this thing happened, people — comics were talking about it very openly and freely, and people were at the clubs to listen. And I found that people were — they found that very cathartic, to listen to comics. But at the same time, for myself, I found that when I went onstage and I would just get lost in this silly stuff — whenever we went onstage during that time, people were very tense. But then if you got them lost in your material — and I would do all this crazy, silly stuff — then you’d see them just kind of forget everything. And there would be one point where they’re laughing so hard at whatever stupid thing I’m saying that they would — it was, it was the first time any of us had felt like it wasn’t a constant replay of this memory, over and over again. So, I became obsessed with going onstage as much as I could to do that for people as much as I could. And I went to all over the country and did clubs so that I could give people this little, you know, 30 minutes or 45 minutes of that.
Marmel: It had to be different in New York, too, than it was in Los Angeles, to be talking about this, ’cause you walk out the door, and it’s right there.
CK: Yeah, and people were exhausted and, you know, it was a hard, hard time. But I saw both approaches work for people. Some other times, comics would be onstage just railing about it, and people were really engaged by that and found that to be a release also.
Paulson: You know, you both had tremendous success in a universe in which a very small percentage of comics actually make it. I suppose it’s like aspiring baseball players. It’s just a very small universe. And, and I have to believe that somewhere along the line, somebody warned you against pursuing this as a career. Were you led astray at career day, is that what happened?
CK: It’s a very stupid thing to do for a living, I think. I think it’s an irresponsible choice to make. I think anything in show business is, but particularly comedy. I think that as soon as you decide to become a comic, you know, God bless you. Make the world laugh, whatever. But you lose the sympathy of the world. You have no right to gripe about anything that happens to you, ’cause it’s just a dumb — I mean, what kind of a jerk says, “I’m gonna — ” there’s no evidence that you’re gonna — I mean, it’s a million in one shot.
Marmel: It’s, it’s the, it’s stopping and going, “I’m funnier than everybody else in America.”
CK: Yeah, and, “Everyone’s gonna notice just when they should, and I’m gonna get all the breaks I should get, and — ” It’s ridiculous. It’s stupid. It really is. I have contempt for myself for doing it.
Paulson: I have to believe, though, with that confidence you have to have, and you pointed out. Then do you sometimes write jokes, and the audience doesn’t respond, and you just go, “They’re wrong. I’m gonna keep doing this joke”? Or is it always sort of testing and rewriting?
Marmel: I kind of do what I think is funny and hope they laugh. But that’s, that’s a luxury you have when you’ve been doing it for a while. When you’re first starting and you’re just getting your foot in the clubs, you don’t really have the ability to go, “You don’t know what you’re not laughing at. I’m brilliant,” Because the club owner goes, “No, you’re not.” And you don’t come back.
Marmel: But eventually you get to a point where it’s, like, you know you’re right, and you’ll get the joke to work at some point.
CK: Yeah, I mean, there’s always — part of the job is to figure out when a joke isn’t working, whether it’s the condition in the room — “Maybe, well, this was a particularly blah-blah-blah crowd, so, they weren’t gonna like that anyway,” and to not change it, but — or to know that, “This is a defective piece of material, and I have to make it work.” But I don’t think the joke is — I don’t believe in doing something and it doesn’t get a laugh and then saying, “Well, to me, it went perfectly.” I mean, I could — you know, you have to reach people, or else what are you — to me, anyways. To me, the challenge is — even if I’m doing something that’s very far-fetched and very unlikely to relate to people, if I can get them to relate to it, that’s a big —
Marmel: And as long as you’re in a comedy club and people are there to see comedy.
CK: Yeah, they paid money. You were hired on the premise that you were gonna make people laugh. So, I don’t think you really have the right to just do whatever you want recklessly, regardless of that.
Marmel: “Surprise! I’m doing drama this week.”
Paulson: As you know, this show is about free speech. And I gather you’re at your most free onstage as a stand-up. And then there are increments, depending upon whether you’re doing network, TNN. What are the rules? What, what can you say onstage that you then cannot say on the “Chris Rock Show,” which you wrote for, which you then cannot say on the “Dana Carvey Show,” which you wrote for? I mean, the networks, I gather, are the most kind of restrictive.
CK: Yeah, I would say that. Well, on stage, you know, there’s even degrees of that, ’cause there are clubs that don’t want you to say certain stuff, but to me —
Paulson: Talk about that. I’m curious.
CK: Well, I’ve never looked at that as, like, a censorship, ’cause to me, it’s like, you have — you know, the free speech is always there, ’cause you can stand on a street corner and say whatever you want or build your own club or find a way to reach people. But if you want to use someone else’s facility that they’ve set up — and that they are expressing themselves, too, by who they employ and who they present to their public. So, if you want to work in a club, if their thing is, “We don’t want guys — that you do certain material” —
Paulson: What kind of material would get them uneasy?
CK: Well, some people just don’t like blue stuff —
CK: — stuff that’s dirty, sexually oriented, cursing, that kind of thing. And there are certain clubs that just — that’s the profile that they bill for themselves, is, “We have family comedy.” But what I’ve grown to learn to do, is that if that’s the kind of club it is, I don’t go there.
CK: And if that’s the kind of club it is, I don’t — I’m not gonna mince — go there and negotiate bit by bit. I’m just gonna say, “Thank you, but I don’t, I don’t want the work.”
Marmel: There’s a club, like, in Utah that, you know — it’s 80% Mormon there, so, they have those constraints, and you know that going into it. Vegas audiences are there because they’re not gambling for 45 minutes, but it is the most middle of middle America, so, you can’t go on there and — you really can’t hit a casino stage and take casino money and expect to be able to sit on a soap box and, and not have that in the back of your head at some point.
Marmel: If you’re known for that, if you’re, you are a Chris Rock —
Marmel: — or you are a Dennis Miller and you are booked in Vegas — or you’re an Andrew “Dice” Clay, even — and you’re, and you’re in that room, people know exactly what they’re going to get when they walk in that room.
Marmel: But I think if you’re a comedy club and you walk in and you’re not the draw — comedy is the draw — then they expect to see comedy, and you kind of have to play by those rules.
CK: Yeah, now here’s, actually, that’s what I was thinking, is that, you know, you have to — if you’re good enough, you can say anything you want. That’s — and I think that that goes into television, too, is that if you want to say something outrageous or provocative, you have to do it with quality in a way that people, that people connect with. ‘Cause then, ‘cause — since I’ve gotten better at comedy, now I work clubs that I didn’t used to ’cause they didn’t want me ’cause I was too dirty. Like, clubs have called back and said, “Come on over,” and I’ve said, “Well, you didn’t want me ’cause I was too dirty.” And they said, “We don’t care. We want you.” So, I’ve worked those clubs since then on the basis that I can say anything I want because I’m saying it in a way that’s, that’s popular. Do you know what I mean? I know what I’m doing now. I’m not just some guy telling dirty stories crassly. I’m telling really well-crafted dirty stories, and so, so, they want me there. And I think that that’s what you find in all facets of it, is that if you can deliver; if you’re good, you know — I mean, the guys that have been the biggest — Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy and Sam Kinison — these were explosions in our culture that were unbelievably, to most people, very offensive, very much in the, you know, .001 percentile of thought in America. But everybody wanted to hear it ’cause they were so damn good at saying it. And they got access to the airwaves, to movies, to all the stages in America.
Marmel: Yeah, they got their voice out.
CK: Yeah, because they’re that good. And I think that that’s what’s — that’s the onus on us in order to get the free speech that we want, is to be good.
Paulson: And, at the other end of the spectrum, I’m curious, though. I mean, if somebody’s 18 years old and says, “I’m going into comedy, but you know what? I’m never gonna use a curse word and never gonna use dirty material.” Do they have a chance?
CK: Oh, sure.
CK: There’s a lot of people that really like that. There’s, you know —
Paulson: But — can you name some prominent comics that sort of —
CK: Jerry Seinfeld never curses onstage.
Marmel: Yeah, Jeff Foxworthy.
CK: Jeff Foxworthy — and Robin Williams. You know, he was dirty in some stuff, but that’s not what made him big.
Marmel: There’s actually a —
CK: Steven Wright.
Marmel: There’s a big wave of — and not to use the word again, but there actually is a community of clean comics, and they bill themselves as clean comics, and they work those rooms, and they work family audiences, and they’ll do afternoon shows. Clubs kind of have a rating system now. There’s a club in Lexington, Kentucky, actually, that actually rates the show, so, you know what’s coming in and you know what you’re getting, and you can choose by the tone of comics. And there is a market for that.
CK: Yeah, ’cause the thing that’s hard is that people — I mean, we should be able to say whatever we want, blah, blah, blah. The clubs should be able to have the show they want. But what happens no matter how hard you try to be careful, people collide with offensive ideas. People go — they just look in an ad in a paper: “There’s a comedy club. I’m gonna go.” And then they hear something that really upsets them. It happens.
Marmel: And what’s interesting is, it’s not necessarily a word as much as it’s an idea. And you can’t really put a rating on an idea. So, if you’re doing material on religion — and you don’t curse, but you’re doing material on religion — that could be enough to make somebody snap and go, “This isn’t the show you promised me.”
CK: Yeah, I mean, like, Lenny Bruce was the foul-mouthed comedian, but if you listen to his albums — I have all of them, and he doesn’t curse ever. He doesn’t use the “F” word or anything. It’s just that he talks about stuff so deeply, and he gets — you know, especially for back then.
Paulson: Yeah, and he used a lot of racial epithets —
CK: Right, right.
Paulson: — which were provocative to audiences at the time. I’m curious. If you played that club that has the rating, what rating are you comfortable with?
Marmel: I don’t — I would probably get an “R.” It’s — I, I don’t have to swear, but I don’t like to have to put a muzzle on me, so, it comes out. Topic-wise, it’s, it’s politics and religion and could be deemed offensive to some, so, I’d probably get either a “PG-13″ or an “R.”
Paulson: When you — when people are offended by you — which is not always a bad thing, as you pointed out — what are the hot buttons: race, religion, sex?
CK: Yeah, there are some things that you just can’t talk about. And what I mean when I say that you can’t talk about it — it’s just that you’re not gonna get away with it without repercussions, you know, without sweating for the rest of your set and just feeling uncomfortable in a room full of people that hate you. That’s really the bargain you’re making. If you want to make — keep them friendly and feel good while you’re onstage, you don’t — you know what I mean? Or you find ways to say that stuff that’s not gonna — anyway, but — I don’t know. What are the big things? You can’t — like abortion.
CK: If you just even say that word, people just, “Ugh.”
CK: Even people that are pro-choice don’t want to hear about abortion and cancer.
Marmel: Cancer makes people just click off.
CK: Yeah. And, and white guys can’t say, you know, “nigger,” you know? And — although I just did.
Marmel: You did.
CK: Yeah, and —
Marmel: And I salute you.
CK: Yes. And that — see, that’s — it also depends on what, you know, kind of a person you are, and how you carry it off, too. There are guys that can say anything and get away with it just ’cause they’re confident enough.
Paulson: When you wrote for the “Chris Rock Show,” you had a lot of latitude.
CK: Oh, yeah, insane latitude. It was outrageous.
Paulson: And was there ever a time, even on that show, you were told, “No, we can’t do that joke”?
CK: No, no there wasn’t. ‘Cause I had started at “Conan,” and that was — you know, we were trying to do edgy kind of comedy, and a lot of times, we’d get called to the carpet with standards and have to try to negotiate stuff. And then “Dana Carvey” was on prime time on —
CK: — ABC, on the Disney Network, and that was really hard. I think “Chris Rock” was — I mean, we barely checked with people before broadcasting stuff, you know? I mean, it’s unbelievable the kind of stuff. Even the, the big, the big barrier that HBO took away is religion. In TV, religion is the one thing you cannot mess with. You can get away with certain graphic stuff and certain sexual innuendos and scatological humor. You know, “Conan” has all the, you know, the robot on the toilet and the masturbating bear, you know, and all this kind of stuff. And he gets away with that. But you can’t say, “Jesus Christ.”
CK: You can’t say that. That’s an absolute hard ceiling, and there’s no negotiating it. And you can’t say, “God damn it.”
CK: You can’t talk about Jesus even in a sort of, you know, in a playful way. They just say, “No, you may not do that.” And on HBO, you know, it just didn’t, didn’t matter. And I did, I did shockingly nasty stuff.
Marmel: Was there anything on “Rock” that didn’t go through?
CK: I just had to be funny. I mean, there was nothing that, that was the only thing that it wouldn’t, you know? No, but nothing. I mean, and we really — you know, it was — and in a way, it was kind of a — it’s fun to play the game at the networks. It’s fun to try to see what you can sculpt out of their material that they allow you to do. And it’s like being a lawyer. ‘Cause the standards people — you’re not talking to the FCC or the federal government. You’re just talking to a guy whose job is to sort of be the ears of the network and know what is gonna cause trouble. And whenever there’s a bit that standards calls you to the carpet for, you get to make a case, and you get to talk about why — you get to make freedom of speech claims to it, too.
Paulson: Can you remember one where you’ve, where you’ve had to go and explain?
CK: Yeah, and this is a good example, ’cause, actually, it was about religion. Rudolph Giuliani was upset because a Brooklyn museum had a —
Marmel: Oh, right.
CK: — Madonna with feces on it, and, so, he said, “Hey, everybody can make fun of Catholics. It’s not fair, you know? All these other groups get this kind of protection. Meanwhile, nobody cares if you make fun of Catholics.” And my joke was, “Well, yeah, that’s true. You can make fun of Catholics, but that’s ’cause they’re wrong about God. They’re the wrong religion, so, we should be allowed to make fun of them.” And, so, I wanted to do that, and, of course, they said, “You can’t do it.” But I, I got to talk on the phone to the standards guy, and my — from working at “Conan,” I learned that — and this was doing stand-up on “Conan” — I learned that you have to make a case for why you should be allowed to say it, and my case was that Giuliani was on every network saying what he felt and that people shouldn’t be shut out of saying the opposite view. So, that got me kind of shoehorned into their — “OK, so, how can you say this that won’t get us all the phone calls?” It’s not really about the law. It’s just they don’t want the hassle. So, the guy, actually — the standards guy — came up with a way to tell the joke that was palatable. I had to just sound like I was sympathetic. Instead of saying, “Yeah, we make fun of Catholics ’cause they’re wrong about God,” he said, “Just say, ‘It’s true. People make fun of Catholics a lot. But that’s ’cause they’re wrong about God.’” Just that intonation — I got the joke on the air because I just changed the tone of voice.
Marmel: And that, and that’s, I think, the most important part, because when you’re in a club or you’re doing stand-up for 300 people, there’s all these, there’s all these people that get to have their opinion everywhere on mass media, and it’s like, having the best Bush joke and having the best Clinton joke and doing it in a club in Omaha and having just that small group of people hear it and make the connection you’re making is great for that moment, but it doesn’t really move the ball down the field about getting your opinion out there if that’s what matters to you.
CK: Right, yeah, no. I mean, I’ve found that there are ways to get stuff in like that. I mean, I’m surprised, but I did get to do that joke on network TV because they, you know, they found a way to, and it’s not always just about language or stuff. Like, when I was at “Dana Carvey,” we did something about Pat Buchanan eating the heart of an immigrant. We showed him pulling it and just eating it, and —
Marmel: This was live footage of him actually eating the heart of —
CK: Yeah. And the standards guy, his issue wasn’t, “OK, that’s too graphic or dirty.” He’s like, “Well, you don’t have a right to accuse Pat Buchanan of eating the heart of an immigrant. That’s not fair to him as a human being.” I’m like, “Are you afraid he’s gonna sue us?” He says, “No, I don’t, I don’t feel that we should be allowed to say that about this person.” So, it’s, it’s — you never know what’s gonna push the button.
Paulson: You were also the screenwriter on a film called “Down to Earth,” which starred Chris Rock — heartwarming movie.
CK: Yeah, yeah.
Paulson: And, and not at all coarse or rude or —
Paulson: And did you have to sort of reset the thermostat to write that?
CK: Not really. I don’t want to give the impression that that’s the — I’m just, like, a dirty comic. It’s just that I kind of stray into — and actually, a lot of the stuff that I do, probably 60% of it is totally clean. It’s just that I stray into really dangerous areas. But that was fun, ’cause we were just writing a Hollywood movie. That was, that’s what that was about, was trying to just accomplish that, you know?
Paulson: Was that harder than you thought it would be?
CK: No, it was really easy for me. I had kind of low responsibilities. I, I was asked to write — rewrite some of the characters and sort of rebuild some of the characters, make them sillier. So, it was just fun. I mean, it was fun to take something — I mean, it was already written, like, 30 times. Warren Beatty wrote it. Everybody had written it, so, we just kind of plugged our own people into it. But it, it was — you know, you kind of make a bargain with whoever you’re working with, you know, or working for. They’ve got the studio or the network, and they’re just sort of set up, and if you want to use their podium, you got to, you know, you got to talk to them. You have to do what they — you know? The studio is not a place that wants you to just say whatever you want. I can’t, just in the middle of “Down to Earth,” just write some rant about what I think about something. And if I don’t like it, I don’t have to, I don’t have to work at that studio. And if I don’t like the way the clubs treat me, I don’t have to be a comedian. I can get, like, a real skill and contribute to society. So, I, I just have never believed in griping about, “No one’s letting me say what I want,” you know? If you’re not good enough to present your stuff in a way that people want to hear it, then, you know?
Paulson: We’ve only got a few minutes left, and I wanted to, I wanted to ask each of you about a — you know, we’ve established that both of you talk dirty on stage.
CK: Well, I do.
Paulson: You don’t?
Marmel: I like the right to. I don’t always.
Paulson: But you both do kind of — there’s some heartwarming art in your resume as well. And including the work you’ve done — “Pop Across America,” where you go out across the country, and, and also some work for Nickelodeon.
Paulson: Can you talk a little bit about writing for a broader audience and maybe even a younger audience?
Marmel: It’s just a nice thing to be — I know it sounds really sappy, but occasionally, it’s really nice to just be able to tell something warm and, and funny that everybody can enjoy and then know that I can, by the way, go out the following evening and just rail on the stuff that angers me. But, but there’s this little piece of my life that’s — I think gives something back to families and kids, too.
Paulson: Well, I’m sure people will see a lot more of your work, and we’ve already talked about you being emerging stars. Do you have any predictions about the future of comedy? Does the Internet play a role in any of that?
CK: Well, yeah, and I think that the Internet is — I mean, you know, people have already said it’s, it’s got inherent differences between TV and stuff, is that it’s proactive. It’s not passive. You can’t have it on and walk around the house. You can’t drift. You have to really be staring into it. And I think that’s just a barrier that will never go away. People will never use the Internet the way they, they get into TV and stuff.
CK: But to me, if you think — like, I have a Web site, and my Web site, I realize I can’t really make it as an entertainment thing that people come to and feel like they just saw a great movie or something. But it’s just a catch-all. These are just place — they’re addresses.
CK: They’re places to go to if you’re — you know, if people see one of my movies or see me on TV, they could find my Web site and see some — and find out about other things I’ve done. That’s really the best it’s gonna get. And I try to make them laugh on the Web site occasionally. And put some dumb jokes or little, little cartoons and stuff, but.
Marmel: I actually like — I like using it with the idea of “You can record your shows, you can digitize your shows, and you can put your stuff up.” So, you’ve got the ability to “mass distribute” with no filter.
Marmel: It’s the access that’s there. But, but it really is — it does give you the ability to be as free as you want to be, because you’re your own studio, network, whatever, so.
CK: Yeah, you can do whatever you want. It is; it’s kind of cool. But it’s also exhausting, ’cause it just takes forever to build these pages and to make the little things and put them up. It’s just so, you know, time-consuming.
Paulson: We’ve covered a lot of territory, and it’s been a great conversation. I do hope, though, that when you guys are, like, the old wave and charging a lot more money, that you’ll come back and join us again.
Marmel: Sure. You just can’t call us old.
Paulson: That’s right. The senior wave. Thanks very much for joining us today.
CK: Thank you.
Marmel: Thank you.
Tags: Speaking Freely